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发信人: Oncogene (癌基因), 信区: Biology
标 题: [合集]Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Tue Jun 1 18:56:18 2004), 站内信件
I wonder how much he is paying to his postdoc to make them work overtime...
【 在 musician (自由心) 的大作中提到: 】
: i think i read this many years ago, but ran into again today when i was
: surfing the net :)
:
: 蒲慕明教授写给他实验室学生的letter(转）
: 看完了，
: 特别注意了"I mentioned that about 60 hr working time per week is what I
consi
: der the minimal time an average successful young scientist in these days ha
s
t
: o put into the lab work.
: 衡量了一下自己，
: 估计是属于那种" I will have to ask you to prepare to leave my lab"。
: 看来人是需要压力的。
:
: 蒲慕明教授写给他实验室学生的letter
: Mu-ming Poo is head of the Division of Neurobiology, Department of
: Molecular and Cell Biology at University of California, Berkeley,
: California, USA. He is also director of the Institute of Neuroscience,
: Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai, China.
:
:
: To all lab members:
:
: Over the past several months, it has become clear to me that if there is
: no drastic change in the lab, Poo lab will soon cease to be a productive,
: first-rate lab that you chose to join in the first place. Lab progress
: reports over the past six months have clearly shown the lack of progress in
: most projects. One year ago, when we first moved to Berkeley, I expressed
: clearly to everyone my expectation from each one in the lab. The most
: important thing is what I consider to be sufficient amount of time and
: effort in the lab work. I mentioned that about 60 hr working time per week
: is what I consider the minimal time an average successful young scientist
: in these days has to put into the lab work. There may be a few rare lucky
: fellows like Florian, who had two Nature papers in his sleeve already, can
: enjoy life for a while and still get a job offer from Harvard. no one else
: in the lab has Florian\'s luxury to play around.
:
: Thus I am imposing strict rules in the lab from now on:
:
: 1. Every one works at least 50 hr a week in the lab (e.g., 8+ hr a day, six
: days a week). This is by far lower than what I am doing every day and
: throughout most of my career. You may be smarter or do not want to be as
: successful, but I am not asking you to match my time in the lab.
:
: 2. By working, I mean real bench work. This does not include surfing on the
: computer and sending and receiving e-mails for non-scientific matters
: unrelated to your work (you can do this after work in the lab or at home),
: and excessive chatting on nonscientific matters. No long lunch break except
: special occasions. I suggest that everyone puts in at least 6 hr
: concentrated bench work and 2+ hr reading and other research-related
: activity each day. Reading papers and books should be done mostly after
: work. More time can be spent on reading, literature search and writing
--
请不要把我说成偶
请不要把我说成欧
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精 ： 2220/ 2220 (100) 灵力： 3500 / 3500 ( 0)
气 ： 1580/ 1580 (100) 内力： 3780 / 3780 ( 1)
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发信人: Himmler (Heinrich), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 01:37:20 2004) WWW-POST
doing science not out of one's own will is like forcing a woman to sell her
body
for 10 bucks an hour.
Some people speak act like scientist, heck they even publish on science
nature.
but deep inside they are just pimp. Sniff.
One of the things that drives people out of science is exactly the existance
of those pimps on this planet.
发信人: NieFeng (NF), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 01:50:08 2004) WWW-POST
That's not entirely accurate.
I think the following only apply to those professors who do not work hard
themselves, but push his "prostitutes" to work hard.
For someone who work hard himself. He is just demanding some work ethics up to
the culture and standard of the inside loop instead of the outside industry.
发信人: torjan (有个性的昵称), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 13:46:48 2004) WWW-POST
the letter is shocking.
1. is this just a joke? can't believe a successful scientist can have an
attitude and manner as menifested in the letter. probably someone cooked this
letter to damage poo's reputation?
2. if this indeed should be true, is this attitude/style typical for biology
profs or this poo is just a rare case?
3. i would say this is definitely not healthy, but is it legal? is it
considered ethical by the biological academic community? in particular the
threatening and forcing-to-leave part....
发信人: Columbia (Peking-Tokyo-Taipei-Hongkong-New York), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 16:31:32 2004) WWW-POST
少见多怪
发信人: mane (窦古露华), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 17:36:17 2004), 站内信件
i think all he proposed here are reasonable, and very true.
if you don't want to do science, just quit it. why bother
the 5-6 year low-pay, no-fun life? if you want to be successful,
these are the things you should do for your own sake.
发信人: musician (自由心), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 17:44:29 2004), 站内信件
the thing that i do not quite agree is the hours/week he is asking,
maybe in his field, bench work is most important and you simply need
to put a lot of hours there to be productive. But in many bio fields,
literature reading, research planning, data analysis are also quite
time-consuming as well. Besides, everyone has his own work style. Again,
i don't know how research works in his field, maybe he is right.
发信人: Backspace (落拓江湖载酒行), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 19:21:54 2004), 站内信件
感觉Poo mm 实验室的人员更新很快, 很多人有了一篇第一作者的文章后就消失了. 也许
是因为Poo mm 对paper 要求很高, 也就发发nature, science, neuron, 最低也要 J
neroscience.
发信人: demoner (千亿个星辰), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 19:27:53 2004), 站内信件
J neurosci是不行的，要特批才能发。。。
一般情况下是neuron底线。。
发信人: mane (窦古露华), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 20:52:56 2004), 站内信件
我想这个时间是需要的，毕竟不是生化的或分子的东西。
当然，他所说的是按照"要做一个好的scientist"来要求。
他这封信前提好像是觉得大家已经很久没有什么进展，
觉得他们懒散。如果你能出paper，就像他提到的florian(?)，
那又是另一回事吧。
发信人: stlstl (射天狼), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 21:09:08 2004) WWW-POST
I hope someone (in the lab/dept/school/university/society) can sue this kind
employer/boss/supervisor.
Scientists willing to work hard are excellent; but they are not supposed to
work hard, not mentioned define hard work as an obligation.
发信人: mane (窦古露华), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 21:20:25 2004), 站内信件
为什么？你自己选择的这条路。不管文件怎么说，事实明摆着现在竞争
越来越激烈，你不能做到这些的话，那就祈祷自己运气超好。如果你想
享受生活，没必要做研究，或者没必要进一个如此intensive的实验室，
不就行了。即便他说的不客气，你还是不得不承认，这是有助于你成为
一个好的研究者的。
【 在 stlstl (射天狼) 的大作中提到: 】
: I hope someone (in the lab/dept/school/university/society) can sue this kin
d
: employer/boss/supervisor.
: Scientists willing to work hard are excellent; but they are not supposed to
: work hard, not mentioned define hard work as an obligation.
发信人: fabian (蓝), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 21:54:02 2004), 站内信件
PMM对自己实验室的人要求高，有几个问题。他用别人的劳动使
自己在竞争中处于有利地位。同时他给同行竞争加大了压力，
迫使其他人也提高标准。他有没有针对更艰苦的工作提高工资
标准呢？科学家也是人。为什么对他们的工作有特殊要求？
如果他可以这样，那公司老板也可以要求员工无偿加班。公司
兴旺大家有饭吃嘛。不是这样么？但是最大的受益者是谁？就算
老板自己也干得很辛苦，是不是就有理由要求公司员工都和他
一样？
发信人: clonist (Epi), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:02:28 2004), 站内信件
if the letter is real i would think 1. he is a successful boss
for himself; 2. he's a jerk; 3. i will never work for him
发信人: Ras (很颓的猪。), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:12:57 2004), 转信
没准他是想把lab里的谁赶走有不好单挑出来明说，故意整这么一封集体信。
这个情况很像偶们楼上一个lab的说。
当然谁知道这信是真是假。
poo教授自己还是很牛的。
发信人: clonist (Epi), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:19:07 2004), 站内信件
one of my college classmates is his grad in china. and now
move to us
发信人: Ras (很颓的猪。), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:20:55 2004), 转信
hopefully not still in his lab? hehe.
【 在 clonist (Epi) 的大作中提到: 】
: one of my college classmates is his grad in china. and now
: move to us
发信人: clonist (Epi), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:21:47 2004), 站内信件
donno. i was told he's quite favored by poo. pub a neuron
【 在 Ras (很颓的猪。) 的大作中提到: 】
: hopefully not still in his lab? hehe.
发信人: Backspace (落拓江湖载酒行), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:22:44 2004), 站内信件
这信真假不好说. 但是从他的给nature 写的那篇关于中国研究的文章来看, 他是是一个
比较push 的人.
另外他近年发的paper 基本就是neuron, science, nature, J neuroscience 都很少,
说明那信里的关于至少J neuroscience 那段不凭空捏造的.
我觉得作为一个成功的科学家不仅要有很好的文章, 还要有自己的追随者或者叫学派:
自己的学生, 博后都可能成为这个学派中的重要成员. 只是把学生, 博后当cheap labor
好像不太成.
当然, Poo mm 的idea 很牛, 他只需要有人作bench work, 好像对他自己来说也无所谓.
发信人: clonist (Epi), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:27:41 2004), 站内信件
and also is true for that "nature" guy
【 在 Backspace (落拓江湖载酒行) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这信真假不好说. 但是从他的给nature 写的那篇关于中国研究的文章来看, 他是是一
个
: 比较push 的人.
: 另外他近年发的paper 基本就是neuron, science, nature, J neuroscience 都很少,
: 说明那信里的关于至少J neuroscience 那段不凭空捏造的.
: 我觉得作为一个成功的科学家不仅要有很好的文章, 还要有自己的追随者或者叫学派:
: 自己的学生, 博后都可能成为这个学派中的重要成员. 只是把学生, 博后当cheap lab
or
: 好像不太成.
: 当然, Poo mm 的idea 很牛, 他只需要有人作bench work, 好像对他自己来说也无所谓
.
发信人: clonist (Epi), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:29:10 2004), 站内信件
it's not easy for a biologist to lead a trend nowadays.
发信人: Backspace (落拓江湖载酒行), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:31:54 2004), 站内信件
good idea+ good luck+ good skill(good labor)
【 在 clonist (Epi) 的大作中提到: 】
: it's not easy for a biologist to lead a trend nowadays.
发信人: clonist (Epi), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:35:59 2004), 站内信件
nobody can't determine luck. as to idea i agree it's important.
but the idea evolves very fast with the progress in the field.
as to skill, now, most advanced tech are developed very fast
and applied into the real lab very fast. it's difficult for
a lab to keep developing the art-of-the-state tech. well, as
far as i know george church's lab is doing that now.
发信人: mane (窦古露华), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:43:02 2004), 站内信件
不说他这封信该不该写，要求是否过分。
postdoc仍然是个training program.
你做得用功，就是为自己将来打基础。
工资低，又不是老板的问题，问政府。
发信人: antidecay (安居乐业), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:44:17 2004) WWW-POST
To be a good leader, you need good vision and leadership/management skill plus
good ideas and luck.
If this email is true,I will say he has some problems in his management style.
It is more useful to motivate people than push people to do things.
Just my 2 cents.
发信人: mane (窦古露华), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:45:55 2004), 站内信件
【 在 antidecay (安居乐业) 的大作中提到: 】
: To be a good leader, you need good vision and leadership/management skill p
lus
: good ideas and luck.
: If this email is true,I will say he has some problems in his management sty
le.
: It is more useful to motivate people than push people to do things.
这话说得没错。
发信人: clonist (Epi), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Mon May 31 22:48:57 2004), 站内信件
look, there must be sth wrong there. according to goverment's
standard postodoc should average about 48k nation wide and about
52k in nyc, sf or boston etc. but nih's guidance is 34k for
first year postdoc
发信人: stlstl (射天狼), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Tue Jun 1 10:09:02 2004) WWW-POST
What you said is right, but that does not give that anyone right to demand so,
I mean anyone.
发信人: nohate (无恨), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Tue Jun 1 10:10:29 2004) WWW-POST
I don't think his ideas are reasonable. It is simply wrong.
You can't demand people to work 60 hours, while you only pay them for 40 hours
salary a week.
Poo himself may be working 60 hours even 168 hours a week, that's his problem.
I hate people saying like 'if you don't want to do science, just quit...',
doing science is just the same as any other works, why researchers have to
work overtime?
Hardworking doesn't simply mean working overtime. Hardworking means you make
good plans and finish what you planned in time.
A good supervisor should never ask his people to work 10 hours a day, he
should ask his people to show results every other week.
On the other hand, I am not saying we should just stop working and go home
when the working time is up. The fact is sometimes you have to work till
midnight, because your experiment just can't stop in the middle. That's when
we work overtime. Other than that, go home, or go to the library, or go to the
gym, or go to the cinema, or go rent a movie...
发信人: stlstl (射天狼), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Tue Jun 1 10:10:59 2004) WWW-POST
If it is real, yes, I agree with you on these: he is a jerk. This kind lab
header should be sued!
发信人: stlstl (射天狼), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Tue Jun 1 10:21:04 2004) WWW-POST
Every employee has the right to choose work hard or work normally hard, so
does a researcher. If a researcher, like you, willing to work hard, both
employee and employer are happy. If a researcher chooses to work normally
hard, the employer CANNOT make a rule such as 60hours/week. I can bet you a
dollor if an employer fires a employee simple because the employee cannot work
60hrs/week, the employer will be sued. Why this kind of employer in scientific
community cannot be charged!
As for low salary for postdocs, lots of reasons. One thing for sure is that
some lab headers treat postdocs as cheap labor and these lab headers just
don't match any government/NIH standard. I don't say they should be sued, but
I wish so!
发信人: ahche (啊且), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Tue Jun 1 10:31:48 2004), 站内信件
The question is that if Poo thinks you are not working hard enough,
he can easily find excuese to ask you too leave.
It is a trade off for people to either work harder or find another place.
发信人: mane (窦古露华), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: Poo muming's letter to his lab staff
发信站: Unknown Space - 未名空间 (Tue Jun 1 11:28:13 2004), 站内信件
你选择要去他实验室，所以你要符合他的要求。
如果你不喜欢他的要求，你可以不要去。
如果你拿得出结果，那么你可以不那么辛苦。
但是一般人没有那么好运，所以还是要拼时间。
不管他是否可以这么赤裸裸的说出来，平心而论，
他说的都是有道理的，只是politically incorrect。
而作为回报，你的努力工作会有好的publication。
不能否认很多人是抱着这样的想法去一个这样的实验
室的。当然这种PI多了，水涨船高，大家日子都不好
过，得有更好的背景才找得到理想的工作。工资等等
的问题，大概如果没有人这么热衷做科学，他们就不
得不靠金钱吸引人员了。跟市场经济似的。所以，受
不了的大家，退出好了。
这个其实跟以前的作坊里学徒跟着师父做是一样的，
严厉的师父手下才出人。符合中国老一辈的概念，吃得
苦中苦，方为人上人。这就是不同的life style的选
择。如果你想兢兢业业出人头地，你就去，如果你不想
这么辛苦，你就不要去。其实就算是公司里面，也不是9-5。
--
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